Another couple of hands
I noticed on Bluescouse's Blog that his latest post mentions a hand he played vs me recently. This was in my database but they are all empty for some reason but I can remember it from memory although it is a pretty boring hand. I have rarely played Bluescouse as far as I know with probably the last time being well over a year ago.
It was towards the end of his session at $5000NL. He had been raising far too much, pretty much any time anyone folded to him. I hadn't been playing long, perhaps thirty minutes when I picked up AA vs him. He raised to $150 and I reraised to either $600 or $650 from the blinds. He called with position. We both had $5000.
The flop came J64 or some similar style flop. I cbet around $1000 and he called. The turn was a total blank and I jammed in for a full pot sized bet of around $3400. He called quite quickly with only 34, a pair of fours with no draw. $9800 pot. He quit soon after.
The other interesting hand to me that I played vs him although not a big pot was the following from near the the start of the session :-
He raised to $150 from middle position and I called from the big blind with 8
9.
The flop came T
4J
. I checked and he bet $300 which I called with my open ended straight draw.
The turn was the A
. I checked and he also checked.
The river was the 6. This is a great card for me to bluff at because my hand should look exactly like a draw to him or at the very least a two pair type hand which I checked to him on the turn. I bet very close to pot, so at least an $800 bet. Notice how every single draw has hit apart from precisely 89 and 9Q. Even if he doesn't think I have a draw he should be able to take me off any reasonable hands such as JQ, J9, Axs, Tx etc as he shouldn't expect me to bet at all with any of those hands let alone this confidently. If I was him I would have folded in his spot probably close to 100% of the time versus a competent player except in exceptional circumstances. I think this hand is a perfect example of a very bad call on the river versus the possible range of hands that a reasonable player(me) can have here. The range of hands he can beat probably amounts to exactly 89 and 9Q(and more to the point only three combinations of 89 and 9Q, suited clubs, suited spades and suited diamonds) in this spot or a rare large value bet with a weak ace or an even rarer float on the flop. Unfortunately for him it will reinforce such calls in the future, which I guess isn't bad for me in the long run =).
He called with AQ and scooped the $2500 pot. I didn't bluff him for the rest of this session =) It is probably surprising to some people how weak AQ actually is in this spot. To be at least somewhat fair to him, he did let his timer go all the way to zero so some thought must have gone into the call. He must have seen how unlikely it was that he was ahead here or perhaps not since he called. If you look at AQ in isolation on the river and don't think about ranges or actions then I guess it is understandable why you will see a call here often so in that respect my bluff is very likely bad vs him with this suspicion being reinforced by the fact that he did in fact call in this instance.
It was towards the end of his session at $5000NL. He had been raising far too much, pretty much any time anyone folded to him. I hadn't been playing long, perhaps thirty minutes when I picked up AA vs him. He raised to $150 and I reraised to either $600 or $650 from the blinds. He called with position. We both had $5000.
The flop came J64 or some similar style flop. I cbet around $1000 and he called. The turn was a total blank and I jammed in for a full pot sized bet of around $3400. He called quite quickly with only 34, a pair of fours with no draw. $9800 pot. He quit soon after.
The other interesting hand to me that I played vs him although not a big pot was the following from near the the start of the session :-
He raised to $150 from middle position and I called from the big blind with 8
9.The flop came T
4J. I checked and he bet $300 which I called with my open ended straight draw.The turn was the A
. I checked and he also checked.The river was the 6
. This is a great card for me to bluff at because my hand should look exactly like a draw to him or at the very least a two pair type hand which I checked to him on the turn. I bet very close to pot, so at least an $800 bet. Notice how every single draw has hit apart from precisely 89 and 9Q. Even if he doesn't think I have a draw he should be able to take me off any reasonable hands such as JQ, J9, Axs, Tx etc as he shouldn't expect me to bet at all with any of those hands let alone this confidently. If I was him I would have folded in his spot probably close to 100% of the time versus a competent player except in exceptional circumstances. I think this hand is a perfect example of a very bad call on the river versus the possible range of hands that a reasonable player(me) can have here. The range of hands he can beat probably amounts to exactly 89 and 9Q(and more to the point only three combinations of 89 and 9Q, suited clubs, suited spades and suited diamonds) in this spot or a rare large value bet with a weak ace or an even rarer float on the flop. Unfortunately for him it will reinforce such calls in the future, which I guess isn't bad for me in the long run =).He called with A
Q and scooped the $2500 pot. I didn't bluff him for the rest of this session =) It is probably surprising to some people how weak AQ actually is in this spot. To be at least somewhat fair to him, he did let his timer go all the way to zero so some thought must have gone into the call. He must have seen how unlikely it was that he was ahead here or perhaps not since he called. If you look at AQ in isolation on the river and don't think about ranges or actions then I guess it is understandable why you will see a call here often so in that respect my bluff is very likely bad vs him with this suspicion being reinforced by the fact that he did in fact call in this instance.
posted by TillerMaN | 2:21 AM
9 Comments:
That was a very loose call from him on the river, bordering ridiculous. SO MANY HANDS crush his AQ holdings, it's an auto fold especially if you hadn't portrayed a maniac style to him. *shrug*
Then, after a jaw dropping experience of reading his blog, things became a bit clearer...
I recommend that other readers go check out his blog, the bankroll swings are fully explicitly detailed. I'd perhaps avoid posting losing pots of $10k with a bottom pair holding, but hey, each to their own. Better (or worse) still, his finances including mortgage figures, gambling debts, outgoings etc are laid bare for all to witness.
This guy talks about picking the right game and waiting for the fish, but I'm sure many pros just sit waiting for him to arrive at the table.
What's he like to play vs Tiller? What site was this on?
If you knew it was Bluescouse, your river bet was probably a mistake. Or do you consider everyone potentially bluffable until proven otherwise?
Pretty much consider everyone potentially bluffable in this particular spot =) until proven otherwise!
Hi Tiller,
Happy Holidays! Etc etc. I've never played against Bluescouse so can only go by hands that he and others have posted to base my opinions on.
That said, I think that although he often plays terribly and says as much himself if he was merely a no-talent lunatic he would have been completely busted by now, and never reached the heights he has managed to attain in the first place.
The point about this hand is perhaps that scouse gave you a far wider range than you would generally have to bet in this spot. Knowing that you know he is capable of calling very light (as in the aces hand) might suggest to him you could indeed be value betting a mid pair, cf. 'merging your range'.
In addition, the card pops out on the river that obviously completes all the draws, then you bet out into a player who may well have completely missed and been bluffing the whole way. Versus a low stakes or uncreative player incapable of ever representing a hand this is of course a fold 100% of the time, but if scouse thinks you are able to fire just using the scare card, or that you might rather attempt to check-raise the river with a flush/straight then perhaps his call makes some sense...
Alternatively it might have been more like: 'ZOMG I have top pair, AND it's an ace, I call, I call, I call'. As you pointed out it might not be worth bluffing this chap, or certainly if he's going to fold perhaps a lesser bet would have sufficed?
JJ
His turn check is arguably worse than his river call IMHO. This is not a spot for pot-control given that most of the deck can potentially improve tillers range. If the board was dry he can check and invite a bluff or even invite tiller to value bet a lesser hand, but on this board he has to value bet AQ/protect his holding. If tiller raises a turn bet he can fold with confidence as AQ is at best facing a strong combo draw but is usually near dead. If tiller just calls Ed may get the chance to take a free showdown given he has final say in the hand.
Wow u guys are being awful bitchy. He aint saying anything bad about Tillerman in his blog and posts most of his big hands there. He admits the 43 hand was very bad play. So whatcha complaining about??!!
Also u grudge him a small pot when he had AQ. Maybe he goes more on feel than game theory. You exclude from the range of hands the countless junk hands you could have had and maybe he thought you were just calling hoping for a scary river. The call wasn't that bad.
Basically I don't get why you slag the guy off - I'd just count my chips!
I have great respect for Bluescouse, it is just an interesting hand in my opinion with which to analyze range analysis.
Just add DNB to your notes of the player and expect to get paid off handsomely in the future. Any time i've seen Bluescouse play, it looks as if he left the fold button at home.
So, what do you think about a raise from AQ in this spot. Are you only calling with a flush? And how often do you call with the straight?
MrSpeed
PS. are we getting a 2007 year review/2008 target post Tiller??
Hey guys...slightly off topic, but I keep seeing these guys buy into short handed 5k NL games with $1000 (especially on party) and just going all in (never play a hand any other way), and if they lose the allin they rebuy and try again, but as soon as they double up or steal some blinds they leave...they have to be making a profit because i see them doing this every day....why is this allowed by the site and do high stakes nl players mind these donks?
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