Poker Puzzle
You are in the big blind and an unknown player is in the small blind, the game is NL Hold'em and you both have $6000 stacks. This is the first hand you have ever played together. It all gets folded around to the small blind who raises to $150. You call. The flop comes XXX and the small blind bets $250 and you just call creating an $800 pot.
The turn comes an X. He now makes a pot sized bet of $800. You call. The pot is now $2400. You both have $4800 left.
The river comes an X and your opponent checks.
The question is :-
Can you construct a sensible scenario where the best possible play is an overbet all in of $4800 into the $2400 pot?
Rules:-
1. The player is unknown, you cannot rely on answers that include stuff like if my opponent is tight/loose/passive etc.
2. The scenario must have as the only correct answer, to overbet all in on the river, there can be no debate as to whether pot bet, half pot or check might be right also.
3. You must name all the board cards in your answer and explain why ONLY an overbet all in is the best play. In other words, if a full pot bet can at least be argued as having merit in your situation then your answer fails.
4. You do not hold the nuts, the second nuts or even the third nuts =)
I look forward to reading your answers in comments.
The turn comes an X. He now makes a pot sized bet of $800. You call. The pot is now $2400. You both have $4800 left.
The river comes an X and your opponent checks.
The question is :-
Can you construct a sensible scenario where the best possible play is an overbet all in of $4800 into the $2400 pot?
Rules:-
1. The player is unknown, you cannot rely on answers that include stuff like if my opponent is tight/loose/passive etc.
2. The scenario must have as the only correct answer, to overbet all in on the river, there can be no debate as to whether pot bet, half pot or check might be right also.
3. You must name all the board cards in your answer and explain why ONLY an overbet all in is the best play. In other words, if a full pot bet can at least be argued as having merit in your situation then your answer fails.
4. You do not hold the nuts, the second nuts or even the third nuts =)
I look forward to reading your answers in comments.
posted by TillerMaN | 3:50 PM
30 Comments:
Let's try this again. I fouled on the first try because I didn't read the rules correctly. Though this might not be the perfect scenario, I think it's close.
Ok, let's not worry about what villian has, it's not that relevant. You have A9 of spades in the bb. The flop comes AcJsTc. Turn comes Qs, you call because it's a very scary board and if you are going to bluff, you can always bluff the river instead of the turn. Also if you have a K, you probably would not raise this turn because it pushes out most hands oop. River comes Ks which gives you the nut flush draw and the board is 5 cards to a straight with a possible backdoor flush.
Villian is definitely checking here because he does not have a backdoor flush himself because he'll probably want value when you play the board. I doubt he's expecting you to bluff it, so he's on check call mode.
It's undisputable that you should overshove not PSB to represent a steal for the possible backdoor flush. If he thinks you know that he cannot have a backdoor flush, then it's a great play for you to try to represent the backdoor flush by shoving. Given the amount of draws out there on the flop and the possible hands that you could be calling in a blind war. I think villian calls this very frequently.
Sorry Neb, I changed rule #4 :(
Not enough information here.If you don't have the 3rd nuts I assume you are bluffing. I guess if I overbet so massively I might be representing quads. Like if the flop came AA6 the turn a 9 then the river an ace you could be representing trips with no kicker so scared to bet until it became quads.
Lets say you want to mix it up for deception and smoothcall with kk in the bb his range is obv very wide.
Flop comes 222 you just call still very wide range maybe just overs, your oponent is drawing to 2-3 outs most of the time. Turn is 4 very save card he bets pot again you put him on a medium pair or maybe on AK-AQ again best move is to call here.
River is another 4, making the final board 22244. He checks you dont put him on a 2 or a 4 as he would usually bet this again. He will maybe call a medium to potsize bet with Ax but since a pair is also in his range he will call this sometimes, he wont fold TT-QQ i think maybe not even 66-99. He might think you called him down with two overs to bluff the river and move him off his hand so sometimes he might even think the board plays and call you with total air.
I think the right play would be to shove there.
That hand came to my mind when i thought about a valueshove, i think this might even be a good spot to shove as a pure bluff with nothing on this board, but the turncall would be a problem obv :)
would be on something like a 23456 board with a possible flush. It would be very difficult to call for a split.
Does the board being the nuts count as you "holding" the nuts? If the board is TJQKA the best play is to push all in and hope your opponent is asleep at the switch, totally retarded, or both. Believe it or not I've actually had people fold in this situation :)
u make the royal flush at the river
I think it would be in a situation whereby you call the raise with Ad10s and the flop comes.
7s,8s,9h
Calling villains continuation bet is not unreasonable - we have a high card, overs, a draw and a float can work well here. At the turn the board reads:
7s,8s,9h [Ah]
We've not hit top-pair but this also improves villains range and our kicker isn't great. A call is still the correct play here.
River reads:
7s,8s,9h [Ah][5s]
After villain checks it is likely he has turned his hand into a bluff-catcher. It's unlikely a complete unknown in a blind v blind bets that turn without something of the board or a draw (most of which just got there). If he was betting on the come he likely has to make a value bet here since our line suggests we were on the same/similar draw or didn't have a great deal. Put it this way, we clearly don't have a set or two pair so a c/r is not the correct river play as we won't bet often enough.
The problem is a PSB will be snapped off for fun by villain if he's making a bluff catcher play and that's why on this board a slide is the best move as:
A push here works as a value bet and as a bluff against two different kinds of opponents. Tighter opponents will fold better kicker aces, some two-pair and maybe even a set so our hand works well as a bluff against them. However, these players would be much more likely to snap off bluffs if they were half-pot to full-pot thus these bets would not work as effectively.
Against looser opponents the bet works for value as they will sometimes call with weaker ace, 1010-KK and possibly 9x hands as they figure the over-push to be a bluff. Again a PSB would be sub-optimal because if a player can talk himself into calling pot with A3o here then he'll not fold that same hand to the push. With this bet we make excellent value if villains makes a curiosity call with a weaker hand.
Essentially in this scenario a push works well as a bluff and works well as a value bet independent of one another.
I've probably not given the best scenario for it but I believe in principle the answer is that your bet has to be a value-bluff. A bet which will force the tighter range of unknowns to fold many hands that beat ours but also will be called by a reasonable range of weaker hands held by the looser unknowns.
IMHO.
i would actually check that AT behind and hope it's good...
So would I usually, which is why it probably isn't the best specific example of the concept I'm trying to put across. But I play lower limits and since this is higher limits with more thinking my scenario is maybe a little more likely to apply.
Also remember with checking you get the worst of it. You miss all value from the looser players that might have made a bad call and you never bluff a tighter player off a better hand.
Flop
992
Turn 2
River 9
You hold nothing but have played it like an unsure/safe mid pair and you believe it's a split pot (you don't have a mid pair as 'all in' wouldn't be correct there - small value bet would). Opponent can be trapping but more likely checking for showdown with missed hand he double barrelled.
in the old days - this would be poor as you opponent calls for split more often than not - now the overbet screams i've got better than the board and they fold - not everytime but most probably +ev/
u call with JTss pf
flop AsAxQx
turn 8s
river A
Can't really think of an exact solution but...
You have $4800 left, and the current pot is $2400. So if you overbet all in, villain must win at least 2/3 of the time to break even.
A scenario could exist such that villain could never win at least 2/3 of the time mathematically (meaning that we are excluding possibility of bluffs, reads etc.)
Flop comes 7c 6s 5c
You hold 7d 7s
You decide to call the flop rather than raise with top set.
Turn 6c
Flush/Quads now out but you have top full. No need to scare off an overpair with a turn raise.
River 2c
Essentially a blank.
You don’t have the nuts. 89c, 84c, 43c, 66 all beat you. However, you get more value from people calling w/ AA-88, the flush and any fish who wants to call you with anything lighter.
I think your only losing value to a flush which may fold, but call a 1/2–2/3pot bet. However, a lot of overpairs will pay you off here for a shove just as much as they would with a pot sized bet. I’m sure you could do the maths behind this to work out if this has a higher expectation.
It’s a bit of a contrived example but one I think works. Players don’t like to fold Full Houses. This is the only kind of hand I can think of that doesn’t require a read.
Look forward to your answer Tiller.
Regards
MrSpeed
Agh shit. Just reread the rules. Think this falls down on rule 3.
i think you have something like
67s
flop comes 56J (2suited)
putting a flush and a str8 draw out there. therefore he bets nearly potsize with maybe AQs,AK,JJ,QQ,KK,AA maybe also 99
turn comes 8 (makin a twice 2suited boardm, oesd and flushdraw)
he doesnt put you on set so he goes for another potsize to give you bad odds for all draws
river comes T (giving the flush of the flop suit)
you have low pair missed flushdraw but u called like having oesfd which is hardly possible by the way u played the hand
he has to fold anything but flush and maybe set.
No I cannot construct that scenario, if the scenario exists i do not know of it.
goblinhat
I want to add that you have the 4th nuts on my board btw(4444,2222,222aa) aa being 3rd nuts if you dont count different 4s for splitpots :)
you hold 56cc
Flop: K73cc
Turn: Qo
River: 4o
you shove river because his check is to induce a bluff from a missed club draw with a hand like AA/AK.
oops didnt read rule #4
you hold: AK
Flop: AK9ss
Turn: 8dd
River: a brick (2o)
same situation, youre shoving for value since he likely checked to induce a bluff from a missed draw, with him likely holding a naked A.
these poker puzzles suck ass.
how did you finish in the wcoop main event?
playhard@dailyquiz.ch
You Hold Ah 2d, and the flop comes 3h 4d 5s initially. The turn is a 6c and the river is a 2c.
The overbet here is a pure bluff, the opponent may have hit the flop, maybe not. By throwing all your money in the middle, you will easily make a player with overcards or reasonable pair question their hand standings. Even if he has a 7, doesn't the overbet scream out "call me, because I have 7 8"? I'd gamble that he doesnt have the 7 and steal the pot. ;)
Any good?
reno u should really read the rules instead of showing ur stupidity
That it is a misdeal and you hold the same card as one of the board cards, and if u showdown then the pot will be split as it would be a misdeal. But when you bet the max you get the max fold equity and even if you are called the pot will be split.
This has messed with my mind. I've just played for three hours and won a measly $13. I hate seeing new players.
Well there are different possibilities for this scenario. The Misdeal is a possibility, as well as the AJQKT board where we would have a hand like JT/J9s or something in that area and made a backdoorflush. I could assume that there is a scenario
where it is mathematically correct to bluff every single time because we will get enough folds from villian to make the play itself +EV /scary board where villian will not have often enough a hand to tangle with us.
3rd fullhouse on a flushboard maybe
but its hard to construct a scenario for a value shove > psb there.
My guess is some sort of sick bluff.
I know the answer! - I got lucky and figured it out within 45mins, tilting Tiller in the process :) It helps if you think backwards to the end scenario then reconstruct the hand from there...
Ive been meaning to write this up since day one. But i think Fredrik is correct and beat me to it.
But for it not to be one of the top 3 hands you would have had to called the flop planning to take the pot away on later streets, but also calling with backdoor straight and flush draws. Its probably correct to overbet river since the backdoor flush is so rare. And also for the reason alone that everyone and there mother now seems to call when the board shows a straight..
Here is exact holdings..
You hold 4D 5D
Flop AD KH JS
Turn QD
River 10D
In this hand you hold like the 30th nuts. And im sure you get called more than often enough to make this a profitable play....
Hero: KK
Villain: AQ
Villain raises to $150.
Hero calls to $150.
Flop: QJT
Villain bets $250
Hero calls $250.
Turn: T
Villain bets $800
Hero calls $800.
River: T
Villain Checks
Hero goes All in
Nuts = Tx
2nd Nuts = QQ
3rd nuts = JJ
ok, flop comes 666, turn 6, river 2, his high pp (but not aa) is counterfeited by your all in bluff. you probably have JJ or 1010...
I like the AQ vs KK scenario
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