Daniel Negreanu on Internet Players
Yesterday before bed I was watching Daniel Negreanu playing ADZ124 heads up in the $100/$200($20,000NL) game. It was just one table and I was curious to see how they would play. It turned out to be a pretty boring encounter from a spectators point of view with both players playing small ball for the 45minutes or so that they played. There was literally no repopping pre and there was a lot of checking from both players. I am not being critical at all, this is merely an observation about the match that lasted around 250 hands.
The reason I bring it up is because on Daniels blog, someone posted about the match and how ADZ124 is a tough player and Daniel responded very insultingly about ADZ124. When it ended(Daniel quit) I think Daniel was up around 6-7k. A totally meaningless result over 250 hands.
Quotes from the forum post are as follows :-
"go rail, playing a tough customer in ADZ......." Initial post.
"still ok for DN, ADZ is a tough online NLHE player." First comment that got Daniel to respond with :-
"Not saying this to be mean at all, but are you serious??? I felt like he was one of the weakest heads up players I've ever faced and don't see how he could ever beat a good player heads up. I'm starting to wonder how good all of these online superstars really are because the ones that seem to be touted as excellent, play in such a way that I find easily exploitable.
I'm sitting, waiting for whoever, but my confidence is growing after playing some of these guys and leaving thoroughly unimpressed overall." - Daniel
"Yes. You're probably -EV against him long term." - Another comment.
"Absolutely no chance. If this guy is supposed to be better than me than I must be the biggest idiot in the world. I can't imagine how it's even remotely possible that I could lose to him long term unless he completely changed his tactics. Either y'all truly underestimate me in a big way or or overestimate the skill level of the online player." - Daniel's response.
"There is a lot of hype surrounding the online players and I think I may have bought into it a little bit myself. A lot of them are excellent players I'm sure, but I genuinely believe after talking to several, and playing with them from time to time, that there is stuff I know that most of them don't.
Compared to playing live poker, I absolutely suck online. Having said that, I believe I'd easily be a winning online player playing 100-200 NL. My "horrible" online play is still better than most, especially heads up.
Oh and Bob? My worst game is NOT limit hold'em! Are you insane? Just because you used to call me down with Ace hi and win all the time doesn't mean I suck. I lost to Patrick in a realitively small sample playing limit hold'em because A) he was very good, cool.gif he was more comfortable online, and C) He ran insanely lucky!
I've never lost money online playing NLH. Actually, the only real money I've lost online has been in PLO and limit hold'em vs a great player in Patrick Antonius. This 100-200 NL game, from what I've seen, isn't very tough at all.
As for my perception of ADZ, I played 250 hands vs him and his strategy heads up vs me was horrendous. Maybe he is good and doesn't match up well with me, or maybe he was "feeling me out," but either way, if he plays that way against on a regular basis without completely changing his approach he has no chance whatsoever." - More from Daniel.
Funny Pokerstars chat with Stinger talking for ADZ because ADZ is chat banned :-
$tinger 88: daniel, adz said to tell u that he read ur post about him on fcp
KidPoker: ok cool
KidPoker: is his chat banned?
$tinger 88: yeah
$tinger 88: from him:
KidPoker: I hear he is good, but he doesn't match up well against me
$tinger 88: dammit i cant copy/paste
$tinger 88: lol
$tinger 88: "i never knew he could play for 30 mins and leave and then call someone bad who hes never played b4"
KidPoker: its a style thing mostly
KidPoker: played 250 hands actually
$tinger 88: and "ask him if he wants to play 4 200/400 hu tables all at once"
JohnSmiley1: the king of talking smack is gonna cry about something daniel said
JohnSmiley1: what happened to the jman match
JohnSmiley1: lmao
$tinger 88: ok done quoting
KidPoker: lol tell him I couldnt play two games, I suck
$tinger 88: he can read ur chat heh
$tinger 88: just cant talk himself
KidPoker: i get too confused playing more than one
KidPoker: why was his chat banned?
$tinger 88: he said its his 3rd or 4th chatban
KidPoker: now this is a game where I'm CERTAIN I'm an underdog in
KidPoker: does he talk a lot of smack or something?
Ego alert. It is funny though =)
I would personally bet money on ADZ124 beating Daniel in the long run if they played a large sample of hands even if this was playing only one table. I have played with ADZ a fair bit mostly under a nickname he won't know and I find him to be a strong and very solid player. Adz has a slightly weird style(in my experience) and is more passive than most high stakes players but he does it well and traps you into betting when it is a bad time too.
In the heads up match they played, ADZ regularly completed the button and checked the flop a lot, but to be fair Daniel wasn't exactly being mister aggressive, he was regularly checking streets too when more aggressive players would bet. Either way I found this thread pretty entertaining and I think Daniel's assmessment of ADZ124 is insanely off but no wonder when he is coming to this judgement after 250hands? Lol. Stupid live players =)
Thoughts?
The reason I bring it up is because on Daniels blog, someone posted about the match and how ADZ124 is a tough player and Daniel responded very insultingly about ADZ124. When it ended(Daniel quit) I think Daniel was up around 6-7k. A totally meaningless result over 250 hands.
Quotes from the forum post are as follows :-
"go rail, playing a tough customer in ADZ......." Initial post.
"still ok for DN, ADZ is a tough online NLHE player." First comment that got Daniel to respond with :-
"Not saying this to be mean at all, but are you serious??? I felt like he was one of the weakest heads up players I've ever faced and don't see how he could ever beat a good player heads up. I'm starting to wonder how good all of these online superstars really are because the ones that seem to be touted as excellent, play in such a way that I find easily exploitable.
I'm sitting, waiting for whoever, but my confidence is growing after playing some of these guys and leaving thoroughly unimpressed overall." - Daniel
"Yes. You're probably -EV against him long term." - Another comment.
"Absolutely no chance. If this guy is supposed to be better than me than I must be the biggest idiot in the world. I can't imagine how it's even remotely possible that I could lose to him long term unless he completely changed his tactics. Either y'all truly underestimate me in a big way or or overestimate the skill level of the online player." - Daniel's response.
"There is a lot of hype surrounding the online players and I think I may have bought into it a little bit myself. A lot of them are excellent players I'm sure, but I genuinely believe after talking to several, and playing with them from time to time, that there is stuff I know that most of them don't.
Compared to playing live poker, I absolutely suck online. Having said that, I believe I'd easily be a winning online player playing 100-200 NL. My "horrible" online play is still better than most, especially heads up.
Oh and Bob? My worst game is NOT limit hold'em! Are you insane? Just because you used to call me down with Ace hi and win all the time doesn't mean I suck. I lost to Patrick in a realitively small sample playing limit hold'em because A) he was very good, cool.gif he was more comfortable online, and C) He ran insanely lucky!
I've never lost money online playing NLH. Actually, the only real money I've lost online has been in PLO and limit hold'em vs a great player in Patrick Antonius. This 100-200 NL game, from what I've seen, isn't very tough at all.
As for my perception of ADZ, I played 250 hands vs him and his strategy heads up vs me was horrendous. Maybe he is good and doesn't match up well with me, or maybe he was "feeling me out," but either way, if he plays that way against on a regular basis without completely changing his approach he has no chance whatsoever." - More from Daniel.
Funny Pokerstars chat with Stinger talking for ADZ because ADZ is chat banned :-
$tinger 88: daniel, adz said to tell u that he read ur post about him on fcp
KidPoker: ok cool
KidPoker: is his chat banned?
$tinger 88: yeah
$tinger 88: from him:
KidPoker: I hear he is good, but he doesn't match up well against me
$tinger 88: dammit i cant copy/paste
$tinger 88: lol
$tinger 88: "i never knew he could play for 30 mins and leave and then call someone bad who hes never played b4"
KidPoker: its a style thing mostly
KidPoker: played 250 hands actually
$tinger 88: and "ask him if he wants to play 4 200/400 hu tables all at once"
JohnSmiley1: the king of talking smack is gonna cry about something daniel said
JohnSmiley1: what happened to the jman match
JohnSmiley1: lmao
$tinger 88: ok done quoting
KidPoker: lol tell him I couldnt play two games, I suck
$tinger 88: he can read ur chat heh
$tinger 88: just cant talk himself
KidPoker: i get too confused playing more than one
KidPoker: why was his chat banned?
$tinger 88: he said its his 3rd or 4th chatban
KidPoker: now this is a game where I'm CERTAIN I'm an underdog in
KidPoker: does he talk a lot of smack or something?
Ego alert. It is funny though =)
I would personally bet money on ADZ124 beating Daniel in the long run if they played a large sample of hands even if this was playing only one table. I have played with ADZ a fair bit mostly under a nickname he won't know and I find him to be a strong and very solid player. Adz has a slightly weird style(in my experience) and is more passive than most high stakes players but he does it well and traps you into betting when it is a bad time too.
In the heads up match they played, ADZ regularly completed the button and checked the flop a lot, but to be fair Daniel wasn't exactly being mister aggressive, he was regularly checking streets too when more aggressive players would bet. Either way I found this thread pretty entertaining and I think Daniel's assmessment of ADZ124 is insanely off but no wonder when he is coming to this judgement after 250hands? Lol. Stupid live players =)
Thoughts?
posted by TillerMaN | 3:03 AM
29 Comments:
Daniel always thinks he is good despite what we saw at hsop. imo phil hellmuth is better than him
TV players are funny and all
Especially when they try to say smart things about poker
But World of Warcraft is by far the worst videogame of all time
It's like a videogame that works in reverse
Really bad videogames suck badly causing you to stop playing them, that's a common thing
But in order to be the worst game that ever was, the game needs to do more than just suck badly. The game needs to suck badly in a paradoxish way that causes the player to play even MORE
And World of Warcraft has accomplished that feat in great fashion and flying colors
Millions and millions of players, every single one of them hates World of Warcraft so much, but the game has them playing and playing and playing
And they even pay extra
This is a terrible videogame for the ages
1. It's the most bland boring and loathsome videogame of all time
2. People play it for weeks and weeks and years and years despite the fact that they find it bland boring and loathsome
3. People pay extra to keep playing it for years even though they find it bland boring and loathsome
If that kind of game doesn't fit the bill for title of "worst videogame ever" I don't know what could
World of Warcraft is a lot like a turd. But not a normal turd
A normal turd, if you take a bite of it, you gag and spit it out and you never take another bite again
World of Warcraft isn't like that, World of Warcraft is like a turd that after biting into it, gagging and spitting it out, compels you to take another bite
And another bite
And another bite
WoW is like a big turd that won't let you stop eating it
And ADZ124 would handily crush Negreanu in 100+bb active stack NLH cash game poker, not that anybody should care
Everyone should let the TV players be, they bring a lot of new blood into the game
I'm curious what you think about my bad videogame is to turd as world of warcraft is to special turd analogy TillerMaN and I mean no disrespect, please respond with your thoughts
Funny sidenote: when he writes about the limit hu against patrik he is refering to him getting very lucky. At the time they finishd playing he clearly admitted that patrik was outplaying him and he basically has no chance of winning.
"He has a slightly weird style and is more passive than most high stakes players but he does it well and traps you into betting when it is a bad time too."
How close does this come to describing Negreanu's style online in heads-up play? I'm guessing that DN will almost never pot the flop, turn, and river on the same hand and will check the flop way more often than some other high stakes players.
If I had to guess, I'd say that ADZ's style probably is best-fitted to work against hyper-aggressive players and doesn't match up as well against DN's. I would also guess that DN feels that ADZ didn't make any adjustments over a 250-hand span. That may be true, or it may just be a small sample size.
Maybe DN would be more respectful of ADZ if he had clearly upped his aggression somewhat between the start and end of the session. Did that happen? Did Negreanu shift his aggression a bit oer the same period? I didn't rail, so obviously I have no idea how they played, but I can guess.
I was talking about Adz pmb and no it was walking pace till the final hand from both players. Very careful play.
Hey Tiller,
Didn't see the HU match with DN but i watched some 100/200 full ring last night in which DN was playing. He looked pretty tight and not the all raising style from Highstakes.
Wasn’t watching too closely as I was playing elsewhere but one interesting hand came up. Apologies if its not 100% but near enough.
Mid position raises, DN calls button, and Stinger88 calls from the blinds. Flop QT9. Stinger leads about pot. Org Raiser calls and DN RR pot. Stingers calls and Org R folds. Turn blanks. Check Check. River 9. Stinger now fires a half pot bet of 10800 into about 23000 pot.
DN then starts tanking it using up his whole time bank. Saying stuff like “9T……..J8?”……”I think you hit a 2 outer”….”were you going to CR the turn??”
He then folds and says he had QT. Not sure if it was a good fold or not but surely he’s giving away way too much info with his speech. Also, he never seemed to think it may be a bluff or blocker bet with QJ etc.
He then said something like…”your too good kid” before quitting the table…haha. You think he's the new Mike Matusow? ha.
MrSpeed
250 hands and judging someone is ludicrous. I've played a 3k hand session once where the same player thought i was;
- rubbish
- great
- insane
- really rubbish
- really tough
- undecided!
etc.
250 hands would have been halfway through his 'rubbish' assessment!!
ok the only way to settle the live-vs-online-players-debate is to have Brian Townsend play a live match vs DN. I'd love to see that
Hi Tillerman. You said that you wouldn't play at Full Tilt due to no rakeback. But you play at Pokerstars and there is no rakeback there. Am I missing something about pokerstars? Please answer this for me. I can never understand why so many people play pokerstars if there is no pokerstars rakeback.
He also has another blog where he posted something about online players and his discussion with them.
http://kidpoker.intellipoker.com/
I agree with second anonymous poster about WoW
WOW IS G A Y
Daniel is an arrogant piece of shit, he has no idea what he is talking about, I am sure he doesn't even use poker tracker:
DANIEL IS G A Y
question to tillerman:
do you play magic the gathering? there is an online version with tournaments and lots of money to make
playhard.
please don't call him a "tv pro" ... i think he's been playing poker for what 15 years or so?
250 hands live would be a decent amount but in online its nothing, i dont think he understands this well.
Please don't agree with my post if you're a member of the idiot brigade
That's like getting an endorsement from the KKK
TillerMaN's definitely not responding now
And PokerStars does give rakeback in the form of Frequent Player Points... you just need to show some commitment to their site before they'll give you much back
As a Supernova VIP club member I've been getting the equivelent of about 35% rakeback according to my PokerTracker
And people play at PokerStars because they have great integrity and great software and great traffic and great customer support
Even if I wasn't Supernova and didn't get my 35% rakeback there I'd honestly still feel it was worth a few thousand dollars extra rake per month to play at their site
They're just the best
So what if Tillerman thinks ADZ is a good player? Kidpoker would absolutely destroy tillerman too so what does that prove?
hi tillerman,
it's playhard, can't you make a community of poker? there is much interest on this blog, we can have a forum, an article section, ...
I think it would have much success.
playhard@dailyquiz.ch
I'm a stars supernova too. Supernova vip benefits would never equal to 35% rakeback in your wildest dreams. It's somewhere in twenties as a lot of people pointed out. Plus, i'm not aware of PT tracking stars vpp for rakeback. :-)
I make little money without rakeback and am a cash game player. If p stars just gives out money in the form of freerolls then that is like no rakeback for me since I won't do well in the tourneys. With the fulltilt rakeback I can make $20 plus per hour in rakeback so I'm a little scared to go play there.
I'd like to see more hands between them, I really wonder how he'd do heads up in the long run against him.
Fun video about korean baseball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtXWFWQDw6M
Hello TillerMan, I mean no disrespect but please respond to anonymous with your thoughts. Is WoW a turdgame?
Kind regards,
Guan Yu
Yes please respond to the WoW is to turd is to special turd analogy please
I find it hard to compare Wow to a turd since I'd be turdish also as I played that game a lot. I also got a decent amount of fun out of it.
Not played it in nearly six months now. It is a huge time sink and I can relate to what you are saying.
There is certainly something very dirty about it and how much it steals from your time =)
This was very funny :-
"World of Warcraft is a lot like a turd. But not a normal turd
A normal turd, if you take a bite of it, you gag and spit it out and you never take another bite again
World of Warcraft isn't like that, World of Warcraft is like a turd that after biting into it, gagging and spitting it out, compels you to take another bite
And another bite
And another bite
WoW is like a big turd that won't let you stop eating it"
Watched DN last couple nights and without seeing if he has had to but back in at all when i go on later on he has had a stack over 60k. So appears he has the goods to back up his boasts. Poker players have unbelievable egos though it is funny to hear the stuff they say. =)
Maybe it's a try on psycological influence rather than his true thoughts (just maybe:)
hey tillerman,
why don't you answer my questions?
why answer to retarded anonymous like the one at 6:26 AM but don't answer my questions?
here are my question again:
1) do you play magic the gathering online?
2) are you going to make a community of poker with forum, articles,...?
3) do you think you have an edge on daniel negreanu headup?
thank you
playhard
1. No.
2. Doubtful.
3. Don't know.
=)
I find it funny, how he got the minimum buy-in raised for the 100-200 game to 40bb when he started to play there.
He said in chat the following: "How you like the new "deep" table option? No more short stackers ruining the game!"
I played Magic: The Gathering quite a bit before I quit everything for poker
It's really funny how everybody in the competitive M:TG scene seems to think that you can play that game professionally, because you really can't
The money that all the best M:TG players make is totally laughable, and even they only sustain that laughable income for a few years at the most
And only like .001% of the M:TG playing population makes that pathetic income, the rest make nothing
It was so funny to me, to go to PTQs and I would always see Antonino DeRosa at them (PTQs are these little $10 M:TG tournaments that qualify you for a bigger invitational tournament)
And Antonino DeRosa has placed well in a few big tournaments recently and was the US National Champion, so he managed to make like a McDonald's employee's pay for the year playing M:TG
So of course he was walking around all those PTQs like he was the almighty king of that shit-heap, and everybody there was cowering in his presence like he was Darth Vader or something
But as an example he's an amazing M:TG player and he makes less than an entry-level Walmart employee
Last night I won 5 weeks of Walmart pay playing poker
Tuesday I won 2 months of Walmart pay playing poker
And I'm not even close to being among the best poker players in the world
There is absolutely no money in M:TG, it's just a fun little game... I mean come on, half the people you're playing against are 12 years old, they have no money to give you, and M:TG is not a spectator sport
Where does everybody seem to think the money is going to come from, I have no idea, you can't be a professional M:TG player
A few thousand dollars might seem like all the money in the world when you're a 14-year-old with a dream, but when you're living on your own you will burn through a few grand like it was never even there
And my question at 6:26am wasn't retarded >:(
You think your questions are so smart and great >:(
You poopy >:(
Stinger885
***CR Pro***
Posts: 1301
Joined: 09/02/2005
"I've been pretty impressed by Daniel's play. Most other famous live pros who I've played with have been big fish at HSNL but Daniel is certainly not one. I'm not sure if he's a longterm winner at 100/200 NL online or not but he plays a tough game."
MrSpeed
Trapping into betting when we are not interested to bet? This is the height of Stupidity of the live players.
_______
Beth W.
At RakeBackCelebPoker.com We Will You Give you a 100% Match Bonus Up To €100 Plus 30% Rakeback for Life! Sign Up Now.
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