Omaha Hand
I was playing heads up Omaha yesterday vs a very very very loose aggressive player. He was playing just over 90% of hands and raising over 40%. He had bluffed a lot and I was getting the better of him overall.
It is 3/6 Pot Limit Omaha, Villain is on the button and only completes the SB. He has $1636 and I have $1122 so we are both double stacked.
I have A
A
Q
9
in the BB and raise to $18. He calls my raise making the pot size $36.
The flop comes 833.
I bet pot of $36. He instantly raises to $144 representing a three. This is the dilemma I guess now, I 100% know he would play any three like this but I also know 100% that he will bluff this board a HUGE amount of the time. So what to do? Call or fold are the only options. Folding feels too weak but I don't want to make a huge mistake for a double stack either. These are the spots I hate in Omaha, this is EASY in hold'em.
I decided to call making the pot $324.
The turn is the 7. I check.
He instantly pots for $324. He would clearly do this with any three and any bluff. Again my only option seems to be call or fold. But how to guage which is best when I know both are entirely possible. In hold'em this is a very easy call vs this type of player since players don't normally have a three in their hand and they have 50% less starting cards with which to hit a three. Also, no hold'em player ever plays 90%+ starting hands but this is fairly common in Omaha. I pretty much just gamble here and call. He can have a three, he can have a bluff and I'm not sure how to guage which is more likely. The pot is now $972.
The river comes the 8 giving us a board of 83378.
I check and he instantly pushes all in for $642. If he has an eight or three in his hand he now has me beat. Not a very good river card. I don't think we can look on it as a good card in as much as if he did have a three he wouldn't push on the river now the eight has hit because I think he would =). If he was not just pure bluffing on the turn and actually picked up a straight or heart draw then you can look on the 8 as a good card as he would see it as a very good card to bluff all in with. I was getting 2.5-1 pot odds so had to be right under 1/3 of the time.
I had come this far hoping he was bluffing and called the river fairly quickly. If he had showed me an eight here I would have been pretty pissed. I was prepared for a three =)
His hand was mucked and I won a $2256 pot. Omaha players please comment on this hand. In hold'em I know this check call situation vs this style of player is profitable 100%. I am entirely unsure in Omaha. It feels very close and perhaps even unprofitable. Shrug. Comments please. The other problem is it is low limits for me and I don't care enough about losing $1200, increase the limits by a factor of five or ten and I truly am in a dilemma.
It is 3/6 Pot Limit Omaha, Villain is on the button and only completes the SB. He has $1636 and I have $1122 so we are both double stacked.
I have A
AQ9 in the BB and raise to $18. He calls my raise making the pot size $36.The flop comes 8
33.I bet pot of $36. He instantly raises to $144 representing a three. This is the dilemma I guess now, I 100% know he would play any three like this but I also know 100% that he will bluff this board a HUGE amount of the time. So what to do? Call or fold are the only options. Folding feels too weak but I don't want to make a huge mistake for a double stack either. These are the spots I hate in Omaha, this is EASY in hold'em.
I decided to call making the pot $324.
The turn is the 7
. I check.He instantly pots for $324. He would clearly do this with any three and any bluff. Again my only option seems to be call or fold. But how to guage which is best when I know both are entirely possible. In hold'em this is a very easy call vs this type of player since players don't normally have a three in their hand and they have 50% less starting cards with which to hit a three. Also, no hold'em player ever plays 90%+ starting hands but this is fairly common in Omaha. I pretty much just gamble here and call. He can have a three, he can have a bluff and I'm not sure how to guage which is more likely. The pot is now $972.
The river comes the 8
giving us a board of 83378.I check and he instantly pushes all in for $642. If he has an eight or three in his hand he now has me beat. Not a very good river card. I don't think we can look on it as a good card in as much as if he did have a three he wouldn't push on the river now the eight has hit because I think he would =). If he was not just pure bluffing on the turn and actually picked up a straight or heart draw then you can look on the 8 as a good card as he would see it as a very good card to bluff all in with. I was getting 2.5-1 pot odds so had to be right under 1/3 of the time.
I had come this far hoping he was bluffing and called the river fairly quickly. If he had showed me an eight here I would have been pretty pissed. I was prepared for a three =)
His hand was mucked and I won a $2256 pot. Omaha players please comment on this hand. In hold'em I know this check call situation vs this style of player is profitable 100%. I am entirely unsure in Omaha. It feels very close and perhaps even unprofitable. Shrug. Comments please. The other problem is it is low limits for me and I don't care enough about losing $1200, increase the limits by a factor of five or ten and I truly am in a dilemma.
posted by TillerMaN | 5:10 PM
16 Comments:
There are so many more hand you could loose to...
Play his game, go all in on the river ;)
U played this hand either like a donk or a Hold em' NL player, either way you shouldn't have called
It is a bit more complex than NL Hold'em noob I'm afraid. This is a pretty close one and I think you have to at least call, call and perhaps fold river but probably not to this river card.
I would probably fold when the board paired the 3s versus a solid player. Playing a donk like that though I think it is a valid call at that point. Once the board pairs again with the 8s I would be a bit more leary and it is closer to 50/50 you lose there. The thing is, a solid player is not going to bet there most likely if he does not have a hand, and a donk player could really have any cards and is actually more likely to call with those cards in his hand. Of course by check calling down you keep the pot lower so it makes it an affordable call, but I think in most cases with that board and a someone betting strong your probably playing a losing hand. On the other hand, with someone who bets every hand and bluffs a lot your going to have to make those calls some of the time or eventually lose money. The problem with omaha in general is that your ability to predict someones starting hand is much harder because they could be betting pre based on just 2 cards. In any case, the answer is pretty cut and dry here, since you ended up winning it was clearly the right thing to do :)
tiller you is back ! many hand analysis ok ? i know you said you give too much information away but WHAT CAN I DEW!
Interesting hand - you are slight favorite against any 4 and this is a pretty good hand to make a stand vs a serial bluffer. It very much depends on what has gone on previously. i.e. he has to think that the bluff has a chance of success - if you've been calling him down a lot he shouldn't think that.
Welcome back Tiller.
Good to see you blogging again. Thought you had given up on us all. J
Some thoughts on the Omaha hand. Please feel free to rubbish my thoughts. I play a lot lower but here goes:
I wonder what your opinion on the 90/40 players play (in this hand) is. In one respect for a player to be able to play 90% of hands he surely must be willing to bluff/bet off his stack with marginal to air hands to be profitable. From the comments previous it looks like most players would go for the call/call/fold or call/fold line. Thus, this could be a profitable play for this player. However, depending on your range for raising a limper he could be drawing dead on the flop. If you would raise 889Tss or QQ88 etc oop (?) then the worse his play becomes. This requires you to play some monsters in a bet-call/ check-call/ check-call line. However, if he can put you on a narrow range then it could become a profitable bluff. Not many players would call off their stack with an over pair.
One point I would note is that you have committed 12 pf + 36 flop leaving 1068 behind. With not much dead money in the pot compared to the money left to bet would it not be wise to fold the flop raise. Not many cards help your hand. It may seem a weak play but surely calling down w/ AAxx is a losing play long term against most players (with so little already committed).
Also, wonder what your line would have been if the river had come a paint/random non-8 card. Check call again?
Sorry for the long post.
ALl the best.
MrSpeed
omfg i visit ur blog everyday tiller just for this day
So using less tables makes you the table sheriff you say?
Hi,
If you read on srugbys blog or similar high stakes blogs such calls are 100% usual in specially in headsup and even in 6max it can be done specially with a read.
WUT KEN I DEW!
you got balls my friend...
against a super agressive player.... i probably only play this hand in position... OOP kills you here and makes you close your eyes and hope to pull it out
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also... did you check call him alot with big hands... cause if not i prolly repop on the flop ... then know where i stand... if he thinks you'd trap with a 3 though this goes out the window
Excellent call. I don't think there are so many hands can beat u given the large river bet. To me the large river bet rules out trip 3s as there would be no value in betting them. I think he correctly puts you on a big pair and doesn't think you can call with it.
I am sure you can rule out a 3 as he would have been happy to check the river. If he is correctly putting you on a big pair which I think he was he surely doesn't think you can call the river bet so why would he bet so much if he had an 8.
He is just playing your hand and doesn't think you can call with a big overpair. With a 3 or an 8 he would have no value in betting so much on the end. If he did have trips what could he think you would possibly pay him off with.
I'm a omaha player. 8 is meaningless. The only real issue is if he has the 3.
Your pf raise means some sort of wrap..maybe big pair to him.
You got 833 rainbow flop. I dont think you can decipher from his actionis on flop.
I think the turn would tip his hand off. If i had a 3 and knew you had overpair and knew you knew that i was a LAG. I would check here and pretend that i got caught stealing on flop. I could check, let you bet it and i would finish you off.
Again its the villian's perception of you. most likely you have some sort of good opening. Only time you might have a 3 here is if you opened with a wrap. which isn't very likely cause lower wraps get owned a lot. Also your 3 might be outkicked...either way difficult decision. So by representing 3 he really puts you in a bind.
However, I think that his turn actions were not indicative of a good/tricky player's move. If he has a 3 and he puts you on a probably top pair (aces) who doesn't believe that he has a 3, i would easiliy check here.
I hope you understand Tiller, its a lot of meta game but the turn would have tipped me off.
The problem you have is that aces represents an enormous chunk of the hands you could hold here. Assuming you have a 3 about 10% here, and you are tight out of the big blind, aes represent the whole of your 11th-60th percentile of hand strengths.
To defend against bluffs, you need to play some aces, but if you play all of them, you are toast to a tighter player.
What price his bluff? Even money, so you need to call top half of your betting range - that's 2/3 of the time with aces + your 3's.
Turn: his price even money, so you can pass almost half your range again, which is more than half your ace hands. River: you pass a few more Ace hands, depending on the price he offered himself.
This type of spot is why it is not a good idea to raise out of position with AA.
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