Poker Question
This hand happened at 25/50 (NL $5000). My friend and I were discussing the hand, (he was in the hand not me).
Everyone folds to my friend who calls on the button with K
8, the SB completes to $50 and the BB checks.
His two opponents are both good/solid players.
The flop comes Q7
4.
There is $225 in the pot.
The first player bets out $220 UTG and the second player calls the $220. Fold isn't an option, so you just have to decide to call or raise?
My friend called. All players had around $5000 in their stack at the start of the hand.
The pot is now $885.
The turn comes the 2 giving my friend the second nut flush.
His first opponent now bet $885, a full pot sized bet. His second opponent called this $885 bet and it was now up to my friend to act.
There is $2665 in the pot now. You have $4730 left. Do you call, raise or fold?
Now 3 scenarios :-
1. You call, the river comes a blank giving you still the 2nd nuts. There is $3540 in the pot. The first opponent pushes all in for around the size of the pot and the second opponent also calls. Do you call or fold?
2. Same as the first scenario except the first opponent checks the river and the second opponent pushes all in for around the size of the pot. Do you call or fold?
3. You call, the river comes the Q pairing up the board. The first player checks and the second player bets $1600 (slightly less than half the pot). Do you call, fold or push all in?
That is five different questions. Look for the question marks! I'll tell you my friends actions and the results of the hand after enough people have commented. I will also give my own thoughts too. Analysis/Reasoning along with the answers in your comments please.
Everyone folds to my friend who calls on the button with K
8, the SB completes to $50 and the BB checks.His two opponents are both good/solid players.
The flop comes Q
74.There is $225 in the pot.
The first player bets out $220 UTG and the second player calls the $220. Fold isn't an option, so you just have to decide to call or raise?
My friend called. All players had around $5000 in their stack at the start of the hand.
The pot is now $885.
The turn comes the 2
giving my friend the second nut flush.His first opponent now bet $885, a full pot sized bet. His second opponent called this $885 bet and it was now up to my friend to act.
There is $2665 in the pot now. You have $4730 left. Do you call, raise or fold?
Now 3 scenarios :-
1. You call, the river comes a blank giving you still the 2nd nuts. There is $3540 in the pot. The first opponent pushes all in for around the size of the pot and the second opponent also calls. Do you call or fold?
2. Same as the first scenario except the first opponent checks the river and the second opponent pushes all in for around the size of the pot. Do you call or fold?
3. You call, the river comes the Q
pairing up the board. The first player checks and the second player bets $1600 (slightly less than half the pot). Do you call, fold or push all in?That is five different questions. Look for the question marks! I'll tell you my friends actions and the results of the hand after enough people have commented. I will also give my own thoughts too. Analysis/Reasoning along with the answers in your comments please.
posted by TillerMaN | 6:57 PM
39 Comments:
After the turn and the action both preflop and on the flop I would have guessed first limper has k qc, or maybe ac q, he limped, and wanted to take it down right there and then. Maybe he even had AXc and had the nuts on the turn. But a pot bet on the flop with only a nut flush draw is a bit to much i feel.
The 2nd limper i would most certanly put on 77 or 44. He probably wasn't on a flush draw since calling a pot bet with one behind him is to risky on the flop.
I think it's higly unlikely that anyone of them had QQ and limped from mid position.
If I wore your friend I would have pushed all-in on the turn with the 2nd nuts, since I feel I have the first limper beat in 2 out of 3, and mostlikely have the 2nd limper beat.
To me it's a push or fold situation. Either you're ahead against a set/2pair/pair or you're behind against the nut flush. You want to take away odds for the set to draw to a boat so pushing makes sense. The only thing you'd have to know is, do your opponents limp w/ Axs? The side advantage of this is you don't have to make a decision on the river :P. I'd probably push in this situation, but I suck at poker so I'm probably wrong!
I wouldn't have limped in preflop with that hand, and probably wouldn't have called on the flop, but since those aren't the options, when he did call on the flop. Why not push on the turn when you get your card, if not the call on the flop would have been a waste, you can't expect to win with a pair of kings if the K had hit the turn.
1. after the flop i'd call. i dont have a hand and want to draw to the flush. with a call i avoid a reraise from someone with a hand here. the pot sized bet seems to be made to drive people on a draw out. i dont want him to get a second chance to do this.
2. i have the second best hand here and dont know if someone has Ac (+Xc), so i have a good chance to have the best hand even when Xc comes on the river. u could slowplay with this hand, but i'd prefer to make a good sized raise to take the hand right here. i have to give Ac with a second card of another suit wrong odds.
3. (Scenario 1) with the 4 to 1 pot odds i have to call. if i dont i shouldnt have played the hand. nearly the best cards possible showed up, only Ac would have been better. raising post flop should help to avoid this btw.
4. (Scenario 2)same as 3. 3 to 1 odds are enough for me. chances of Ac Xc should be small enough.
5. (Scenario 3) to the hands that beat me in the other cases now come 1*QQ 3*44 3*77 and 3*22. a set by player 1 seems possible as he tried to get drawing hands wrong odds with pot sized bets. because i have not raised after the turn i cant know what he did. so i´d raise and see what happens.
ps: i just play small stakes, i´d push in all in anytime there.
Sometimes I think that in situations like the first situation I would be unsure of the situation like set or something. I think if I were unsure as to the relative raise I would call otherwise I'd push all in. Also I think raising to the pot is wrong.
I raise turn, not all in though..
And if they call, Im going all in on river no matter what falls :)
I started writing this respons, and evolved it more and more as I wrote, so I might have gone way off from any logical thinking and end up sounding like a clueless idiot, but I'll post it anyways. Be kind!
For the record, I wouldn't have called with K8s preflop in the first place exactly cause it gives you very tough situations like this. With that being said, to the situation postflop (without option to fold on flop):
On flop: I would call, goes without saying that it's cause I have the pot odds for it, and if i raise and is against a set he might go allin and in effect force me off the draw. From both the other players I consider these hands as viable: KQ, QxJc, 77, 44, JTc and perhaps 65c (allthought I'm not sure if people generally reraise in a limped pot flopping such a monster draw on 25/50). However I would think that only the 2nd limper could have 65c or JTc, as suited connectors aren't really a hand I would consider to be first limper in mid position with. Also I consider 77 a raising hand in this situation preflop, while 44 is more of a first limper hand, even though I can't totally rule out 77 for him aswell.
On turn: Ok, the flush hits and the first limper still bids pot. I doubt a solid player would do that with 2 solid players calling behind him on flop(assuming your friend is a solid player) with hands like KxQx and QxJc, so I'd say either AXc, 44, 77 or JTc are the hands i put him on.
The 2nd limper (only) calling also is somewhat alarming. Hands like AXc,77 and 44 are what i consider likely here, but I can't rule out JTc aswell. He might hope for a reraise from the player behind him (me) with AXc.
So, my choice here is to minimum raise, making it $885 to go, leaving me with with slightly less than $3000. This makes the pot $4435, giving the 1st limper pot odds of 885/4435 = aprox 20% to call. If he has a set, he must surely figure that someone has the flush, and that he has 22-23% to hit a full house, giving him odds to call.
Ok so here's the scenarios on turn after I make it another $885 to go:
1) 1st limper has AXc, and goes allin considering that the 2 players behind him has a weaker flush and a set. If the 2nd limper has the set he will not have odds to call in the hopes of hitting a boat on river, and will fold, while the weaker flush will call (in 1st limpers mind).
2) 1st limper calls or folds, while 2nd limper goes allin with AXc thinking I have the weaker flush and (if he called) 1st limper has the set.
3) 1st limper calls, while 2nd limper also calls, giving me the idea that both have sets, or maybe even a weaker flush than K8c, and fears a higher flush but wants to see the river action before deciding considering the low bet to call.
4) Either of the players goes allin with JTc and the other calls/folds with AXc/set.
If either of them goes allin, I fold. If both/1 calls I will go/call allin on river that doesn't pair the board, and check/fold if the board does pair.
The combinations between the possible hands on turn gives me 6 where im beat (1st/2nd limper: AXc/77, 77/AXc, AXc/44, 44/AXc, AXc/JTc, JTc/AXc)and 6 where Im ahead (44/77, 77/44, JTc/77, 77/JTc, JTc/44, 44/JTc). Of those 6 Im ahead theres a 1/5th possiblity of me being behind on a paired board on the river.
This will make my investment of $1770 on my turn decision (calling $885 and raising another $885), which will win the pot (6*(1-1/5))/12 = 40% of the time, needing me to get 2,5 to 1 on my money ($4425). In all my scenarios I will get much more.
However, I guess there always is the chance that both fold on the turn raise, or that 1 calls and fold to my allin on a non-pairing river, making the pot smaller than $4425, but I doubt it will happen...
Oh and as for the allin on turn, I consider it a worse desicion, cause the way I see it you will more or less only be called by the better hand.
Quote:
"Sometimes I think that in situations like the first situation I would be unsure of the situation like set or something. I think if I were unsure as to the relative raise I would call otherwise I'd push all in. Also I think raising to the pot is wrong."
I agree completely and sometimes as in the 3rd situation you get the odds you need but the reverse implied odds dictate a fold so you have to watch out for that.
one has a set, another acq, board doubles up fold, another club and fold, otherwise u raise on river.
raise the turn
I call the flop, a raise here is just too big and gives one our the opponents the chance to push (specially since they can push some kind of combo draw we can stack if we hit the flush)
I call the turn and call/push any "non-board-pairing" river card. I'm not folding the second nuts here and I think this is the best way to get the money in.
Looking forward to your analysis
Coincidentally, I happened to be watching this hand last night on UB while playing another game, and lemme just say that it was pretty sick. I think there are advantages to both calling and raising on the turn. You do have position and if the blank you're hoping for hits the river, your hand is pretty well disguised and any reasonable bet an Opp makes on the river may pot commit them. Still, there are 18 cards in the deck you dont want to see and you will be put to a difficult decision on the river facing a large bet if one of those 18 cards falls (not to mention the fact that one of those cards might kill your action if you're up against a smaller flush which would pay you off now). Personally, I don't see how anyone is getting away from this hand, especially in a Hi-stakes 6 handed UB game which often plays pretty aggro. Perhaps if you flat call and both Opps move in the river :). With the flat call , Q hitting, and value bet I call, but think its a fold to a push.
this hand is tough without any reads or info on the players involved but usually its unlikely a set/2pair will just call on a board to a flushdraw.
depending on my table image and reads i might push the flop to fold Axc or toppair and hope first player doesnt have a set/2pair.
turn is push to get money from a single Ac or sb drawing to a fullhouse which u wont get on the river where he will always get yours if he hits. but its only slightly +ev, very borderline for sure
i think most likely holding for the first player is Axc though or maybe a weaker flushdraw testing the waters. second player is odd maybe a flushdraw too?
Come back to Wc3 Tillerman ! =D
On the flop: Why isn't folding an option? 665 in the pot, 220 to call, Close call with expressed odds, but you're not drawing to the nut flush and theres a chance even if you hit that you'll get redrawn.
Since I can't fold, I'm calling and hoping for the Ac.
On the turn I am raising 885, because theres no other way to find out where I am. The first limper will probably call (my guess is that he has 44 or limped in preflop hoping for action with AA/KK.), and I want to see what the second limper is doing (he might have Ac7c, 5c6c or has a set and wants to see the action behind him before committing more chips). If either pushes all in I am probably folding.
In scenario 1: I dont have sufficient info to tell me Im beat and I'm calling.
Scenario 2: Same as above.
Scenario 3: Fold, I can't seem him betting with anything less than the nut flush.
I would have pushed in on that turn, There is 1 hand wich is better and I would take the risk, to much money to fold it. How often do u see someone get cracked with 2nd nuts? If the second player had A flush he would raise for sure, so its the first player you have to consern about imo. And as I said, I would take the risk.
Tillerman we want you to come back to warcraft 3 and make great game commentaries. Or at least make some poker commentaries.
Like if someone hits a 2 outer on you all in just say "WOT CAN I DEW"
I would defintely push all in on the turn for two reasons.
A) I don't want to see another club fall on the river which might give that AQ with ace of clubs a chance to win. I want him to fold on the turn by telling him thatI have the flush already.
B) it seems that the 2nd caller has a set but and decided to slow play but got scared on the turn when another club fell on board. In this case, I still believe pushing all in is the best play because I want that 2nd caller to fold his set. I would be very vulnerable on the river if the board paired in anyway. Especially by the way these two players played their hand.
I think you're playing this hand because you have position and really the flop/turn couldn't have gone any better for you.
On the first question, you call the initial raise because you are drawing, get a free card and they will have a harder time reading your play also.
After the turn you raise player 1's bet. Use your position and find more out. Calling won't put you any better and right now you are ahead.
Scenario 1:
Tough decision, I would fold. If 2 good players are allin in their position, 2nd best isn't good enough.
Scenario 2:
Also tough, I say call but I don't like this situation so I would have raised the turn to find out more.
Scenario 3:
This one is tough depending on your read of what you're up against. I say call. If you think you're safe to push allin here then you should have raised or pushed on turn. Folding would be a possibility but I don't think I would.
Given that I can't fold preflop and I can't fold the flop... there's only one answer.
Push. the. turn.
you have to push all in on the turn,
It is the only logical play, if u limp with K8c isnt this a great board, if you dont push here you are trying to get too clever take it there and then, However there is a fine line between pricing someone out and waiting to see if they hit!!
First Question:
Pot is $665. After flop, call if you must.
Second Question (after the 865 bets):
Tough situation. I'd pot size raise it, so raise it to $5000, putting in $2335 of your own money. There are four hands to worry about here Ax clubs, Q7, 77, 44. I'd say there is a 50/50 chance each player either has the nut flush with Ax or one of the 2 pair, trips hands. You need to bet here to find out and kill the draws. If you are reraised all in, you save your $2400 left and fold. Someone has the Ax clubs.
Question 3 - Scenario 1.
You fold here. If second player folded then you call, but one of these guys has Ax clubs.
Question 4 - Scenario 2
Call, against one player I'd say there is a 50/50 chance you are beat and you are getting more then 1 to 1 on your money.
Question 5 - Scenario 3
Q is scary. Q7 fits the betting pattern for either player. I'd fold here.
Quote:
Anonymous said...
Tillerman we want you to come back to warcraft 3 and make great game commentaries. Or at least make some poker commentaries.
Like if someone hits a 2 outer on you all in just say "WOT CAN I DEW"
WHAT A DISASTER!
Hello there Tiller!!!
Its me again from the other post, I was first post asking about when you were finally going to challenge for Rank 14 high warlord.
Well, did it arrive? If so make sure you get on Draenor server, the alliance to horde ration is something rediculous like 83% alliance to rest horde, so make sure you roll a horde player.
If you throw me a whisper, I might be able to help u get straight into a high end raiding guild. :-P
Relaxation, pah, thats not possible with this game. I challenge you to try playing it "just for relaxation".
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HAND.
MERRY XMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS
You guys give these oponents way too much credit, I've played stakes just to see how it is, and at those games, people are so tricky, they bluff and semibluff way more often then what you are used to at the lower limits against nutpeddlers.
My theory is: if you choose to draw to the flush at the turn, you will go all in if it hits and doesnt pair the board. Drawing then folding/not maximizing the pot with flush with fear of ace-hjigh flush seems very bad.
The people posting asking tiller to go back to wc3 are idiots, pathetic or both.
ps i think he's against 2 sets
"The people posting asking tiller to go back to wc3 are idiots, pathetic or both."
Your mom is a homosexual
IceGod
"You guys give these oponents way too much credit, I've played stakes just to see how it is, and at those games, people are so tricky, they bluff and semibluff way more often then what you are used to at the lower limits against nutpeddlers.
My theory is: if you choose to draw to the flush at the turn, you will go all in if it hits and doesnt pair the board. Drawing then folding/not maximizing the pot with flush with fear of ace-hjigh flush seems very bad."
Your mom is a homosexual
IceGod
"ps i think he's against 2 sets"
Your mom is a homosexual
IceGod
Icegods mom and dad seem to be homosexual
icegod is a spokane omnisexual
-KrazyMofo
jesus, KrazyMofo? is that you?
remember me? :)
-Zenmuron
FYI, for clarification's sake, there was one MP limper, SB called, and BB checked.
SB and BB were the two players betting and calling on flop ($200) and turn ($800).
give us the answers already
push all in when the club comes out, and hope to god another club doesnt come out.
Yep, I agree, I would "push all in when the club comes out, and hope to god another club doesn't come out" providing the board wasn't already paired. I would want to "end it here and now" for better for worse with an all-in. I think on the turn you're well ahead anyway..
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