Lesson Learned
This hand did not happen recently, it is around 10 months old but it has always remained in my head as it was painful and taught a decent lesson. It is also pretty unique and will probably be amusing =)
10 Handed full ring game at Pokerstars.
Early position raiser makes it $50 to go. I call with 9
9
as does the player to my immediate left.
The flop is 9
9
A. Woot =)
Original raiser checks as do I with my monster, the player to my left also checks.
The turn card is the Q.
A nice turn card. Original raiser checks, lame. I check behind him again as does the player to my left.
River is the J. Another excellent card, perhaps someone hit this time? The original raiser checks.
Now comes the fatal error, I put the original raiser on KK and assume I can only get action from the player to my left who I am praying has JJJ, KT or a flush in which case I want to check raise him huge. I check...
Player to my left checks. Showdown :-
Original raiser turns over AA. Noooooooooooooooooooo.. He was doing exactly the same thing as me.
Player to my left had 55.
Moral? Don't get to clever with monsters =)
The checks on the flop and turn are fine. I should have bet at least something on the river to perhaps get a call from KK or a passively played AK or Ax. Also the player to my left may well check as big a hand as KT or a flush on the river anyway fearing a very scary looking board. He would almost certainly call though. If I had just bet $10 on the river I would have won a $2070 pot instead of a $180 one =)
10 Handed full ring game at Pokerstars.
Early position raiser makes it $50 to go. I call with 9
9 as does the player to my immediate left.The flop is 9
9A. Woot =)Original raiser checks as do I with my monster, the player to my left also checks.
The turn card is the Q
.A nice turn card. Original raiser checks, lame. I check behind him again as does the player to my left.
River is the J
. Another excellent card, perhaps someone hit this time? The original raiser checks.Now comes the fatal error, I put the original raiser on KK and assume I can only get action from the player to my left who I am praying has JJJ, KT or a flush in which case I want to check raise him huge. I check...
Player to my left checks. Showdown :-
Original raiser turns over A
A. Noooooooooooooooooooo.. He was doing exactly the same thing as me.Player to my left had 5
5.Moral? Don't get to clever with monsters =)
The checks on the flop and turn are fine. I should have bet at least something on the river to perhaps get a call from KK or a passively played AK or Ax. Also the player to my left may well check as big a hand as KT or a flush on the river anyway fearing a very scary looking board. He would almost certainly call though. If I had just bet $10 on the river I would have won a $2070 pot instead of a $180 one =)
posted by TillerMaN | 9:32 AM
16 Comments:
well from all your hand logs I see you play, you play very well and make nice use of slowing play monsters; but don't you see value in having 1/1000 hands where you just play them differently from what you normally would?
new torrents are out :> you should anounce them.
oh my god... tiller you noob... did you never played Limit Holdem? Never Read Books like Small Stakes Holdem?
Every noob, playin 5 months on [pg]korns page know much better to play this hand, than you did... and we have not more than one or two No-Limit players...
dont know how the reads on your opponents are, but I think, if you bet the flop (dont know much about NL... maybe 2/3 of the pot?) every opponent who plays this game longer than a weak know that this raise can come from a huge range of hands. X9, Ax, nearly every pocketpair, maybe KQs with a backdoorflush. Wich hands you raise in a full-ring-game in early position? Much hands include an ace, right? Would you fold an Ace to a bluff/semibluff-looking bet on the flop here?
And maybe the opponent to your left will call or raise, too.
Dont understand that waste of money...
KRE
Lol, KRE. I fucking hate guys like you. Self proclaimed authorities, criticizing others to convince themselves they know what they're talking about. Will you just shut the fuck up? Fucking condescending pseudo experts man... seriously.
Not Limit poker Kre. Completely different game which you clearly don't understand.
In Limit, of course I bet flop turn and river.
Theres obviously a curse of poor play when people get quad 9's.
kre - just, no.
Hey TillerMaN, I followed your career somewhat during your war3 days and see you somewhat as a gaming guru. I have a question thats been on my mind for awhile now since I've started playing poker with friends/locals. I was wondering the opinion of a professional poker player on how much luck there is in the game on a professional level. I mean, will the best players always end up on top? or is there always a chance of the cards determining who is going to end up at the final table. I seem to think the game is 50%luck 50%skill although I mostly play free pub games for fun and in no way consider myself professional.
yo KRE, korn wouldn't like to read what you wrote here. embarassing.
Over time luck evens out, however in one single tourney there is a significant luck factor, considering you are on a decent skill level. Just look at Moneymaker...
While reading this post I could of sworn the ending was going to be someone had an 8, 10 of spades or a 10, K of spades. :P
I learned about NL, that you play the hands of your opponents in this kind of Holdem.
So, ith what hands would you check that flop? Only with good or very good hands, or maybe, if you think, the chances to bluff both opponents out, then with a very poor hand.
How would you react to a bet? Is it relevant how big the bet is? Would you fold AK or AA?
I think, the only hands, that will give your 99 relevant amounts of money are Hands like AK or AA, and these hands will not fold. So, you imo must think about, how you can bet, that hands like AA or AK will go allin.
But if you check behind his check, you will not make get him to raise allin, or not?
or another view:
There are only 3 chances for the thinkin of the opponent:
a) he thinks, he has no hand and so he will check to the river or give you a very small amount of his stack
b) he thinks, he has a marginal hand and will probably give you some, but not much, money
c) he thinks, he has the best hand, and will give you all his money if he thinks that you will call an allin
If a) is true, you can do what you want, but you will not win much more than there is in the pot.
If you play a little aggressive, there is imo some chance to get a little money from a b)-thinkin opponent and much from c).
If you play very aggressive, you will get the best probability that you get the most money from c) but surely no money from b).
Thats why I think, medium bets will bring you the most money here. If you dont give your opponents tells with very fast callin or somethin like that, there is no reason for your opponents to think you have 4 of a kind.
counter-arguments?
KRE
It is quite simple really Kre. When you flop 4 of a kind in NO LIMIT Hold'em you want to give people a chance to catch up and if they do you will win a full buy in, not just an extra bet.
So with 5*BB pre in early position it is reasonable to think he might have AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ or TT.
The person behind me could also have any of the above all the way down to 22 and of course a wide variety of other hands.
Once the original raiser checks, there is no other option but to check here and let KK, QQ, JJ, TT, - 22 maybe catch up and hit a full house in which case you will win $1000 more. If he has AK or AA, checking does not lose you money anyway as he should usually bet out on the turn with Ax.
A great card hits the turn, a Queen, there is a small chance that it has filled up either the original raiser or the player behind me. If it has I'm sure one will now bet. Original raiser checks, and I check again hoping the player behind me bets. He does not.
If I had bet the turn both players would fold unless they had Ax or QQQ. Ax is a discinct possibility but if they have that they will surely bet the river or call my bet on the river. I'd prefer to give them one last chance to fill up to a full house so I can get $1000 more, not $100 or most likely nothing as from experience it will just go fold, fold if I bet the turn. Like I said I do not have the original raiser on Ax as he would surely have bet the turn.
A jack hits the turn and the original raisers checks. In the actual hand I checked. I agree that is a mistake. I should have bet a nominal amount and hoped that someone called with Ax or smaller or more preferable - reraised with a flush/straight or the full house that I was trying to let them hit.
If they both had as I suspected under pairs KK/QQ/JJ/TT - 22 then the chances of them filling up by the river was roughly 16.5% combined. 16.5% to win $1000 is alright by me.
In other words and in my opinion, perfect play of this hand was CHECK, CHECK, BET.
If it was really really tough opposition then better play may be to CHECK, Small Bet, BET. But it wasn't tough and I would have won a buyin 99% of the time if they had filled up by river.
Okay, that sounds right. But why should a person with Ax dont think the same way as you do?
I only play 7 or 8 month poker and am able to think such ways, too...
And the chances, that you are against a good hand are imo bigger than the rounded 20% for filling up with second and third pairs. Imo it is nessecery to get the one allin, who has in maybe 40% here Ax...
If they aren't the toughest players you will maybe get some extramoney of their 3rd or 4th best hands (than fillin up will be interesting).
... dont know ^^
KRE
I think I would've bet that turn. I think you're underestimating the amount of calls you will get from flush draws, straight draws, AK/AQ playing the flop cautiously, etc. Your turn bet would look a little suspicious since you probably would've bet the flop with a hand like AK,9x right? Your opponents could misread your hand and give you decent action. If I didn't bet the turn I would've bet the river for sure.
KRE, please shut the fuck up, you are really embarassing [pg]korn.
do something for your table image and visit a dentist ugly.
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